Enter The White Stripes pt. 4
by Whitney Pastorek

11/26/2007

An Interview w/ Editor Alyne Ellis

WHITNEY: Ok, Alyne, so, I'm writing this thing for Jay, and he and I were talking about wanting to get your involvement, and I thought the easiest way to do it right is if we just sort of had a conversation about what happened and why it worked and your suggestions for other first-timers and stuff like that...

ALYNE: Ok...

WHITNEY: Um...

ALYNE: Now, you know, bear in mind that, and you should put this in there, that, you know, I guess everybody knows, I'm not there now.

WHITNEY: Well, right, no. But you do have a certain wealth of experience.

ALYNE: I don't disagree with that. I'm just telling you what they're looking for now might be different in specific terms.

WHITNEY: Right. Ok. So we'll go into it with that sort of caveat. When you were working at the Cultural Desk, you got pitched ideas and then you passed them on to other shows, am I correct? You sort of pitched them again?

ALYNE: Basically. The shows do not have to carry the pieces that the Desk brings in. And so your job is to be the middle person between the reporter and the show, both in terms of making the piece sound good and all those things, but also in terms of paying attention to what the shows' needs are. When you sit where I sat and you look at the crunch of how tight those shows are packed, with the news in particular, often you want to make a "peg," to make sure that your piece has got a reason for being, and it's got a specific date to air. But it might still be that your piece gets shelved because some other piece...

WHITNEY: Right, it suddenly gets bumped so they can talk about the Car Talk guy's bonsai trees...

ALYNE: No, real news. I think that's one of the hardest things to explain to some people.

WHITNEY: I was pretty convinced that the reason why I got bumped was because I'd sent out an email to like 200 people saying, Listen to NPR tomorrow! and of course when you do that, it's not going to run. That was fun for me. So since we're talking about this White Stripes thing, why do you think that Sharon [Ball, my original editor] accepted this piece in the first place? Can you pinpoint something specific about the subject matter, or...

ALYNE: I can't really speak for her, I mean, completely. I know she was familiar with the White Stripes, intrigued that we could have a piece on it, felt that it was something happening now that people would be interested in...

WHITNEY: It's not like, though, that you guys have a list on a bulletin board somewhere that you just go down and check off the topics that you're looking for or anything?

ALYNE: No, we don't. But you know, there are certain things, to answer that, yes we do, or they do, if it's things you absolutely have to cover. You know, you want to do the Emmys and the Oscars and major museum openings and books. But no, White Stripes wasn't on a list like that.

WHITNEY: And then Sharon passed it over to you because...

ALYNE: We had all kinds of organizational issues going on at the time that Sharon accepted the piece, so I made a point of coming to her when I wasn't busy and saying on and off, Well, I have some free time, is there anything extra you want me to do? and this just happened to be one of the extras.

WHITNEY: And when she said, Yeah, I have this thing by this chick who's never done radio before, about a rock band... were you sort of nervous?

ALYNE: No, not at all.

WHITNEY: You were fine with it?

ALYNE: For a couple reasons. I mean, first of all, she'd already talked to you. She clearly thought at some point that you knew enough about them. I had confidence in her that she wouldn't have passed me something that wasn't worth pursuing, number one. And number two, I made it a point of working with a lot of new people while I was at NPR. You know, there are certain things about working with new people that bother me, you know, that I think of as red flags, but because you already talked to Sharon, I didn't feel worried about it.

WHITNEY: Do you think you can be specific about what those red flags are?

ALYNE: Well, if you'd come directly to me, the kinds of things I looked for when I was dealing with new people was their knowledge of the subject matter that they were pitching, and their enthusiasm for the subject matter, and their ability to set that subject matter in a broader picture. And to be able to verbally conceptualize what they think the piece is about. I saw a lot of people who couldn't do that.

WHITNEY: What do you think is the main difference between radio journalism and print journalism? If someone's coming from a print journalism background?

ALYNE: I guess the ability really to understand how you use sound, and to do it in a smaller amount of actual time, I don't mean in terms of reporting, but in terms of crunching it down to, you know, a piece that you really want to listen to, that uses sound effectively to keep you listening. And paints pictures. I think there are a lot of new people who can't paint pictures. There are quite a few that have trouble with that.

WHITNEY: I know so much more about radio now from doing this than I did when I went in, just because I didn't really listen to it that much, but how can you explain something like painting a picture? I mean, is there a way to put that into words? Is there a way to teach that or instruct that? Or is it just an inherent thing that you have to have?

ALYNE: I think there are ways to teach that. I think that there's a way of having a conversation with a person when you're editing them, both before they go out to get the tape and after they come back, that gives them the sense of how to start that process. For example, when I go out to do some taping, which I'm doing right now, and I feel sort of like a novice again because I haven't done it in so long, I catch myself doing things like, I was up at Landmark College, reading all the things that are on the walls into my tape recorder, counting how many people are in the classrooms, making a note of what they're wearing. Then, when you come back to write your script, you're able to place the listener in what the room looked like. And I think that you can have a kind of conversation with people ahead of time that helps them to think that way.

WHITNEY: Instead of just throwing them out there.

ALYNE: Well, I think there are other things you have to do, too. I ask all new people, I ask most people, but particularly new people, to do a small focus statement, you know, what they think the piece is going to be about. And to walk me through who they're going to interview and why.

WHITNEY: How often do you think the final piece ends up being similar to what that focus statement was? You go into an interview always kind of having in the back of your mind what the story is about...

ALYNE: Unless it's hard news and the story is changing, what you think the story is in the beginning, in broad terms, often turns out to be what it is in the end.

WHITNEY: How important is it to, to some extent, allow the subject to drive the conversation and take you someplace different, if that's where they want to go?

ALYNE: I would be very uncomfortable if somebody went out to do a story and felt so tied into exactly what they'd pitched that they didn't see or hear the other things that might come up that would make the story richer, different, more accurate, whatever. I think that you have to be open to that. And I think that it's really important for an editor to encourage people to experiment with their own style and find their own voice. Now, you know, again, some of that you can't necessarily do on a hard news story... but I think the Science Desk at NPR, for example, has just done a fabulous job of thinking of more narrative ways to tell a story, more ways to make the information that they're telling relevant in the sense that you understand it's a story with people. I think it's important to do that in arts reporting too.

WHITNEY: In terms of what I was doing, I guess, we had to sort of figure out where my creative writing background stopped and journalism started. I feel like you were constantly on me to, like, take that out, we don't know that, that's not a fact, stuff like that, which was really important. What sorts of journalism training resources would you suggest?

ALYNE: Well, I think a lot of people go to something like Sound Reporting, or the Columbia School of Journalism, a lot of people get trained up there, or other journalism schools. I think that for people who are serious, taking a look at both what NPR and other places have already produced or reading things like the NY Times or some other newspaper that really sort of truth-squads what they're doing...

WHITNEY: Did you just say "truth-squads"?

ALYNE: Well, maybe truth-squads may not be quite the right word.

WHITNEY: It's just a funny expression.

ALYNE: But I think it's partially truth-squadding and part of it is having an open, questioning mind so that you don't accept something somebody tells you without seeing all sides and checking it out. I guess I would say the biggest thing to worry about, which I think a little bit was true with you, is that you really cared about this group and felt passionately about them. I think that's important and good, but particularly being a new reporter, its easy in a sense to almost get blinded by the passion you might feel for liking the group, and not necessarily get another dimension of the story.

WHITNEY: I totally know what you're saying. I already commented in an earlier part of this essay about walking into the interview and trying to be all hard-nosed and then being like, I just want them to like me! I want to go get beers!

ALYNE: And I would have to go back and look at the script again, Whitney, but I don't remember that being a particularly hard-nosed piece.

WHITNEY: No, I don't think it was at all. But you know, I don't think that was my intention, ever, and if anything, working with you pushed me in a more hard-nosed direction. The example that I've been thinking about is that I wasn't gonna even go NEAR the husband and wife thing, you know?

ALYNE: Uh-huh.

WHITNEY: I just wanted to talk about their music.

ALYNE: I don't think you can present somebody without getting who they are. And the fact that they were married to each other and you know, basically quietly, intentionally, and publicly glossed over that, lends more dimension to them being savvy in terms of their marketing... which is part of the story.

WHITNEY: It totally makes sense to me now, but literally, when I was sitting in that room with them, I was like, if I ask that, they're going to HATE me. I mean, what's that, the first rule of journalism? I shouldn't worry about them liking me.

ALYNE: Well, I think that's true, but I think sometimes we all want people to like us that we're interviewing. Sometimes I'll save some of those hard questions until I'm sure I've gotten the other ones out of the way, so when the mood of the conversation changes, I'm closer to the end of the interview.

WHITNEY: So it's not like you start with the hard question and they're like, Sorry, see you later.

ALYNE: Well, you have to make sure you get the other stuff.

WHITNEY: Right. And then you can piss 'em off.

ALYNE: Right.

WHITNEY: So the editing process. I think we must have gone over the script and refined it by taking out one word here and two words there... I think I have like ten drafts of it on my computer. Is that standard? Or because I was new? Do experienced people walk in with scripts and say, this is it! and people say, ok great!

ALYNE: No, you wouldn't do that much editing with an experienced reporter. The most experienced reporters you might do one edit or possibly two. I think every editor edits differently, I like to deal first with content and audio flow, and then with individual words. It's a collaboration, a sort of artistic audio dance.

WHITNEY: I think that technique gave me a certain amount of freedom, just in terms of shaping the whole thing. With you really looking at specifics, I still sort of felt a sense of ownership over the giant whole.

ALYNE: That's the goal that I always feel I want as an editor.

WHITNEY: Yeah, well, it works. Good job.

ALYNE: Thank you.

WHITNEY: You're welcome.

ALYNE: I think when a person's piece hits the air they should feel like it's both their work and their words. Of course, once in a long while, I haven't been able to reach that for the person who's filing, either they feel that they're losing control of the piece to the point where it isn't their voice anymore, or I feel like it's not what the show wanted...

WHITNEY: Working with Manoli [Weatherell, my engineer] in the Bureau to mix the piece was kind of amazing, too. Because she did all the clicking of the buttons, but she was like, Does this sound right? Do you like this? No? Louder? Softer? What? Where should this music come in? She really did an amazing job of letting me sculpt it.

ALYNE: Well, to some extent, that's unusual, not for Manoli, I don't mean it that way, but I think that most producers don't have the luxury of going into a Bureau and having the engineer be interested in that particular piece, wanting to really help, and having the time to do it. I'm not saying the engineers aren't interested in the pieces that they're trafficking, but I think having somebody who liked that particular subject a great deal AND had the time to produce it with you, that's unusual.

WHITNEY: A couple more just quick things: Why the insistence on having an "expert" come in on pieces like this, or on any piece?

ALYNE: I think there's a lot of discussion about that, back and forth. I think sometimes if it's somebody we think a lot of people don't know, or there's an important reason that an expert could bring context, then we put that expert in.

WHITNEY: I think you felt that we needed another voice in there besides me and them.

ALYNE: I think that's probably true. I think a style that NPR seems to follow is that, if it's just you and them, why in the world isn't it a host interview? What can you bring to it that a host couldn't by going out on the road someplace or having them come into the studio?

WHITNEY: My sparkling personality?

ALYNE: That's true.

WHITNEY: If people are not necessarily gunning for NPR, which they don't have to be, you know, they can just be running around doing radio stuff, what would be some words of wisdom?

ALYNE: I guess I would say to think broad. Find out what your passions and your interests are, and experiment with a lot of different styles and ways of doing things. And the other thing I would say, from a practical standpoint, because those aren't necessarily always the most practical ideas, you know, if you DO want to earn a paycheck, I would get to know a lot of the different programs that are on, you know, everything from Latino USA to Justice Talking. Pay attention to what they're covering before you call them and pitch something. Be specific with the kind of ideas that you have, as opposed to just saying, I'd like to do a piece on global warming. Be much more specific about why you would do it, in what specific way. And I would say that you have to know your editor and get to know what your editor wants, but you also need to feel that that person is hopefully explaining to you on some level, depending on how much time they have, what they want and the kind of things they're looking for before you go out to do your story. Personally, I think it's your right to have that conversation, because I think that it's important for both the editor and the reporter to know the story before the reporter goes out. The editor is that person's safety net, both in terms of getting their piece on the air, and in terms of making the piece more sound and having the right equipment... but most people don't get the luxury of going to the Bureau and sitting there with the engineer.

WHITNEY: Yeah. She was good. Thanks for setting me up with her.

ALYNE: Oh, she's great.

WHITNEY: Yeah, she was really cool.

ALYNE: But that's not typical.

WHITNEY: Right. I think maybe I got a little spoiled.

ALYNE: Oh, no, you got very spoiled.

WHITNEY: I don't have a big head about it, though. I'm very grounded.

[One last thing that Alyne and I both agree about: NPR should have an on-air vehicle that specifically showcases new talent (in addition to the Next Generation Project). Alyne suggests that the news shows begin a regular segment that introduces new voices, a place for work that doesn't have to sound like the other stuff, a casual way of bringing new reporters and producers into the fold. I think this sounds like a smart plan.]

About Alyne Ellis

Alyne Ellis has been a long time editor at NPR, first with Performance Today, then NPR's award-winning documentary series Horizons, and finally an editor on NPR's News Cultural Desk where she edited pieces that appeared on Morning Edition, All Things Considered, and NPR's weekend news magazines. She has also been a trainer for NPR's Diversity Initiative and NPR's Next Generation Project. She left NPR in August of 2002 as part of a budget cut that merged two arts departments. As a producer, Alyne has won numerous awards for her own work, including the Unity and the Cindy, and work she has edited has also won awards including the Kennedy Award. Since leaving NPR, she has recently served as the managing editor for "She Got Game," a special on women in sports produced by WSHU. Currently, she is producing a documentary for Soundprint about classroom technology for disabled children, and editing a documentary on mental health in Cuba that will run on WBEZ. She continues to be interested in training new radio reporters and editing as well as continuing her own radio productions. She has just started her own business: ALYNE & Co. in Washington, DC.

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